Supporting and Retaining the Next Generation of Teachers

Presenter: Susan Moore Johnson, Harvard Graduate School of Education, Cambridge, MA

This session is presented in separate parts. Use the buttons at the end of the transcription to navigate between each part.

Part Three

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: Mentoring is all the rage. And I think there is some sort of deep hope on the part of everyone that if you get the right mentor, your life will be saved and you will be the teacher you remember. But the truth is that mentoring pairs seldom are anything but haphazard. There are driven by the schedule. They are often not pairs of people who really know the subjects that the individual is teaching. And in integrated professional cultures, there is mentoring that extends beyond the one-to-one pair, so that you may have pairs but those are not the only people that you can go to for help.

All the teachers in Massachusetts were supposed to have mentors, and we would say, do you have a mentor? Oh, yes I have a mentor. Well, tell me about the mentor. Well, I have not seen the mentor since the first week of school. My mentor teaches across town, or my mentor teaches on the other side of the building. I am science. She is special ed. It is just story after story of people who, within the context of a school and the schedule and the constraints of space, never saw their mentors or got very little assistance, or felt like their mentors taught in ways that were totally alien to them. And so, if you really put everything on this one-to-one match, you really can encounter a problem in not having people have the support that they need.

Some of our people had no mentor. Brenda had no mentor. She said: “I just really wanted feedback on what I am doing. You could be doing this a little different. I think that would not happen if you had done this. That kind of thing. I just kept saying, I want anyone that wants to come in and observe. I mean, I do not care. I do not care what they think. I just want some feedback. I do not care if it is a horrible lesson and they see me. I just need to know.”

The number of people who had not been observed and who wanted to was striking. And this I think is one way that the generational differences are quite notable. Because, for the most part, people entering today, whether they are mid-career coming from other lines of work or first career, have really grown up working on teams. And I do not just mean sports teams. They go through college doing team projects. They have group everything. They review their interaction. They expect people to be coming in and out of their rooms and sharing their work with them.

My generation, it was very much into my classroom, close my door, do not look, do not check. I am fine if you are not in here. So, having that kind of exchange that Brenda seeks is something that a lot of people want.

In integrated cultures, novices have easy and organized access to other teachers. And they have a shared sense of responsibility by the veteran teachers in the school for all new teachers. Fred said: “There is never a time when I do not feel like I can go to either one of the veteran teachers I work with and say, it is not working. I need help with it. And the suggestions they have given always seem to deal with the problem.”

So, while I think mentoring and pedagogy is really valuable and, if it can be high-quality mentoring, just of great importance to a new teacher, particularly if it is within the subject — and we have good evidence that that kind of skillful mentoring increases retention — but there is also much more to know about teaching in a particular school that you have to learn from a larger array of people. What are the norms and values that matter here? What are the routines that work? What will really make people mad? What does the principal expect? How do I interact with these parents?

And to know those things requires more than being observed teaching. At the risk of sounding trite, it takes a whole school faculty to provide for the induction of one novice teacher. And I think we are pretty foolish if we think one-to-one mentoring can do all that.

The role of the principal — it always comes down to the principal. doesn't it? Before we go to that, integrated professional cultures. In schools with veteran-oriented cultures, the accounts of teachers were really stunning and troubling. They talked of principals who were absent or preoccupied or obsessively rigid or controlling and unfairly demanding.

Brenda said of her principal: “She is very busy. She is very busy. It is hard for me to say, though, what specifically she does.”

Brenda had trouble with a seventh-grade class. And there were two students who kept calling her "bitch" in class. And she went to the principal for help, because she had no mentor, as you know, so she had no where else really to go to. And as you recall, she taught 10 classes, so she had no common prep with anybody else. So, she had no one to go to.

She went to her principal. Her principal actually was really kind of annoyed with her and said, "I thought you would have things settled by now." But when she told her this, her principal said she would come and talk to the class. But Brenda said: “She did not show up when she said she would. I mentioned it to her again, and she said you would come at another time. But she did not come. I just never felt like I was really supported.”

The stories of principals, the problems are not subtle. They are really quite dramatic.

In schools with novice-oriented cultures, the principals tended to be overwhelmed with the institutional responsibilities or, in some cases, they were excessively controlling. They were in to bring the school into line and make things work.

Mary, who was talking about her charter schools said: “Building a charter school requires an individual with amazing vision, with energy, a real entrepreneur. My principal is a real entrepreneur. Now, what I need is not like, personally, I do not really need an entrepreneur. I need someone to come in and give me really concrete feedback. I am in awe that he has done this. It is tremendous. But, nonetheless, day-to-day for me, it makes it hard.”

In schools with integrated professional cultures, the principals tended to be informed, present and active. And that seems to so obvious as to be ridiculous to put up here, except to tell you that there were so many schools where the principals were uninformed, absent and either passive or abusively active. They were positive and friendly. They were encouraging. They held high standards, but they were not punitive. They were realistic about how to get to those standards.

For the most part, they knew how to teach well. And the teachers felt that when they were observed by those principals or when they talked to those principals that the principals had a clue about how to teach and were not just in this managerial role that put all the expectations back on the teachers.

They also were able to find resources for the teachers. They could see what they needed and they could help them figure out how to get what they needed. Whether it was books and materials or whether it was time or whether it was ideas, that there was a way in which either they or the people they encouraged to help the new teachers made it available.

And they promoted rich collegial networks within the school. There were a lot of accounts of, well, why do not you go over and talk to her. Now, she is coming to you and she is going to ask about this, be sure that you help her with X. Those were the kinds of things that the principals were encouraging and they were encouraging other administrators to do and other lead teachers to do.

Fred said: “The principal supports the work of the teachers. She recognizes that the teachers in the classroom are the experts in their fields and they have the rights and the responsibilities to do their job. She expects highly of them, but also respects them highly. She makes it clear to the teachers that she wants to know what is going on in the classroom. I encourage it. I love having her come in. She is very good at telling us what kind of job we do and how she appreciates it.”

Integrated cultures, therefore, do not just happen. Rarely do expert teachers step forth and assume responsibility for new teachers, for new curriculum, for new ways of teaching. There are these incredibly powerful prohibitions that discourage teachers from standing forth and saying, I know how to help people how to do this. How about this idea?

For some reason in schools, equity has come to mean nobody steps forth with expertise. And so these kinds of initiatives have to come with a lot of support from the principal.

Integrated cultures have to be built very carefully and deliberately and collaboratively, with teachers and administrators. And the induction programs that matter for new teachers have to be grounded in these kind of integrated professional cultures.

The school-based induction, this is some of what we have already talked about. Hiring is part of induction. It is decentralized, school-based, rich with information and exchange on both sides. There is intensive orientation, continuing seminars. You have read about orientation programs and induction programs that really are more than just a handshake and a hello on the first day.

For novice status, formal and informal is recognized. There is an acknowledgement through the structures, through the conversation, through the interaction, through the professional exchange, that new teachers have something to learn and that the school can provide it for them. And there is collegial and administrative support through school-based mentoring which extends beyond the one-on-one match, ongoing peer observations that support new teachers.

And there is continued professional development. The curriculum that was introduced three years ago, with extensive professional development, will not continue unless the new teachers are brought into it in an orderly and sustained way. And so the components of school-based induction and the factors that support integrated professional cultures are very closely linked and very interdependent.

In the short run, I would say, in concluding, that we can address the challenge that we have with new teachers and the next generation with the professional structures that are now in place. So, we can have hiring that is school based. We can have principals realize the importance of becoming active and engaged and helpful. We can identify expert teachers who can serve as seminar conveners for the new teachers. And we can establish a schedule that allows for peer observation.

All these things are possible and, if we do them right, there is a chance that the incoming teachers, both the people who intend to stay short term and long term, will have support and the school will be better. But I believe that, ultimately, we have to challenge the belief that teachers are replaceable parts. That all we have to do is bring people in to one job that is the same job from the beginning to the end of our career.

And the egg crate culture of school, as it has been called by many people, allows for a classroom to be staffed, someone to come in, take care of those kids and leave. But that assumes that every teacher has the kind of expertise to make that work. And we know that, ultimately, that model of schooling is not really one that supports students and learning.

I think that if we do not figure out how to create a differentiated career in education, where teachers who truly are experts get responsibility to provide professional development, to provide for the mentoring of new teachers in a sustained way, to really take a much more active role in the professional culture of a school, then schools are going to continue to be staffed, or increasingly be staffed, like summer camps, kind of like the one that I showed you, that had all of those new teachers way over to the inexperienced side.

And when schools are staffed like summer camps, you only worry about a short period of time. You know that you will run people into the ground. They may or may not be back, but there is always a fresh supply. We may always find a fresh supply of teachers, though, that is even in doubt, but it will not be teachers who are experienced, who are knowledgeable, who have developed the craft of teaching.

And if we staff our schools like that, then covering classes is the goal, a warm body in front of every room. Expertise is discounted. No point in becoming an expert in anything, because it is all come and go and turnover. And teaching becomes like temp work that is marked by early exit and this rapid turnover, and nobody ever pulls that together for the sake of the kids.

We do not yet have an established and effective career structure in a district that we can point to — there are schools that are working on it — one that systematically lays out the roles and the responsibilities and the rewards that come with that. But that is the direction that some forward-looking schools and districts are moving. And I would argue that in such endeavors rests the most promising future for the next generation of teachers.

Thank you.

[Applause]

MARY ELLEN FREELY: Dr. Moore Johnson has graciously agreed to entertain your questions and we will start right here.

Thank you.

QUESTION: Hello. I really enjoyed your remarks.

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: Thank you.

QUESTION: I am John Penoyer from New York.

Do you find some relationship between schools that have An integrated culture and schools that have either made or in the process of making that kind of Michael Fullan-esque transformation, student achieving and so on?

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: Well, the problem is that we have not really looked enough at what is really going on at the school. And I think that a lot of places that claim to be making a Michael Fullan-esque transformation look very much like they did 15 years ago, so that self-reports are a little bit of a problem.

But I think what is clear is that a school that is really seriously involved in reform and transformation has to be addressing these bedrock questions about what we are about and how we work and whom we serve and what our mission is and how each of us participates in it. Every time there is that kind of a conversation, then there is the opportunity to bring new people in.

I think the real problem is when the conversation stops. If that school reaches its transformed state and then says, okay, we have got this done, and stops talking, stops investigating, then new teachers coming in have no chance to participate in that. So, I would say, certainly, where in fact it is for real going on, that for sure that would be a place that a new teacher would want to be.

MARY ELLEN FREELY: Is there another question?

QUESTION: Hi. I am Ann Ryder, and I am from Vermont.

You mentioned bedrock issues. It seems to me that one of the basic bedrock issues is the lack of, as you said, prestige and pay. I know there is not an easy solution to that, but I wondered what your thoughts were about that. Because I think without changing both of those parts of the equation, we are never going to get the teachers that we deserve in our public schools.

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: I could not agree with you more. There are statistics. And if you look at the growing split between the pay of teachers over time and comparably educated people in other fields, as many people have said to us, you do not enter teaching to make money, and we know that. And as long as that is a deterrent, there is no question that schools will not get all the teachers that they deserve.

It is clear that many people chose teaching despite the pay. And that, ultimately, when we interview, those are the people we are talking to. And yet they still are saying, I do not think I can do this for long. Most teachers are subsidized. They are subsidized by a spouse or a partner. Some by an extra job. They figure out how to make do. And so we have people who say, well, we are a two-career teacher family, and on that you can do all right. As long as they do not look up at what their peers are making in other lines of work.

I see that with my daughter and her friends now. Now, not only is the pay bad, but the jobs are disappearing and people are being told we are going to lay you off. You are getting your pink slip next week. And we will tell you in September whether you have a job. So, it's sort of the pay and the job security. Historically, people would trade off job security for the pay. And up until the last few months, that has not seemed like an attractive option.

When you do not have the job security and you do not have the pay and you do not have any way of affecting your income by doing something in a more expert fashion, and the world thinks that teachers are stupid, or whatever, except for the ones that they had, who taught them to be so smart, it is very demoralizing.

The research on this is very slim, because it is hard to get to the people who might have been teachers if only the pay had been there. There is a little bit. And it is suggests that sure, there is a group of people out there who go into other lines of work, become public interests lawyers or go to medical school to serve people, and we might very easily transform that kind of interest into teaching. So, it is a huge issue. We are not even doing very well, though, with the people who have chosen to teach despite this.

QUESTION: Hi. I'm Barb Clarke, from West Chicago.

In terms of hiring practices, one of the things that we struggle with is how exactly to structure that. I would be interested in any comment that you had on supposedly researched based types of interview questions along the lines of like Ventures for Excellence or something like that.

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: I have not really looked at any of the surefire interview questions. I will tell you what my bias is about these. I think that you have to get well beyond, will someone make a generic good teacher to get to the question of will someone be a good teacher for this school. Because schools are incredibly different, as you all know, one from another.

And so maybe there is some set of questions that magically will identify someone who is not going to care about kids or not be smart enough to organize a lesson or has not a clue about classroom management. But I think you have to push way beyond that, about someone's practice, what the expectations are, and really get a sense of will this person feel supported and will we feel like supporting that person.

So, I am actually not very much in favor of anything that is preplanned and prescribed and scripted on any side. But there certainly are things that you want to know about, and it a is lot more than the most superficial pieces of teaching. That is not very helpful, except that I just think there is nothing short of a lot of person-to-person interaction that really serves a school well.

QUESTION: I am Ian Rule, and I am from Texas. And I am a consultant, so I serve on a panel task force on recruiting and keeping the best teachers. It is something called the Texas Educational Reform Caucus, which is largely legislators and Republicans.

I gave them the last chapter of Teachers that Work and they refused to read it. Because the guy from the union was there and he said, I know what teachers want and I do not need to read that. And then he gave a 20-minute obnoxious monologue.

But I commit to blaspheme. I say you get this wonderful system where you have the standards which are your goals. You have the curriculum. You have the tests. And it is all nice and tight and neat. And the problem is, when you are talking about recruiting top teachers, there is no place for them to be professionals. There is no place for them to be creative, unless the district is really, really committed to it and they will find someway within this wrapped up system to give them some professional standards. Otherwise, you get the old factory model and you get assembly line workers and so forth.

How much, nationwide, do you think these burgeoning systems that are really all a nice, tight little package are going to discourage good people from being a teacher?

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: It is very interesting. We expected to see that, because of the standards-based reforms in Massachusetts, we expected our teachers to report that they felt hamstringed by the curriculum that they were given. And we were absolutely stunned to find that most of them had no curriculum. And I think that this is the case in a number of States that have moved — not Texas, I realize — moved towards standards-based reforms.

But the frameworks from the State do not align with the curriculum that used to be available in the districts. And so we would ask teachers, what do you use for a curriculum? And they would say, well, I use the frameworks. Well, the frameworks are a set of competencies. They are not a curriculum. They may be topics that are supposed to be taught in a particular place.

So, they would try to juggle, okay, I have a math book, but it only has certain topics that are in the framework for this grade. And so they started to map back from the test questions that were available on the Internet. So, it was, to our surprise, a curriculum void rather than this highly prescribed curriculum.

I think that it is very different from State to State. And I hear stories, certainly from Texas, about the lockstep, what you are supposed to do, highly prescriptive, and closely monitored. Our teachers were saying, I would really like to have scripts that I could decide whether to use or not. I would be very happy for a curriculum if I could modify it. They talked about seeing themselves, over the course of 10 years or 5 years, needing less and less curriculum. But they often would say, but I would sure like to have those daily lessons if they are available.

So, I think it is the prescription piece that is really key here. They have majored in a subject. They end up teaching something that might be related to part of what they studied. They have very modest methods preparation in most programs. They may know chemistry, but not know how to do experiments. So, they would be very happy to have a sequence of things that they could go through and modify.

So, I think there is great danger. I think a lot of people believe that it is scripted and controlled, and maybe avoiding that and the pay and other things wrapped in that. But, in fact, it is not the case everywhere, and we are really trying to follow that up in a study in three States right now.

QUESTION: I am just curious about what you feel is the role, positively or negatively, and maybe the opportunities for teacher unions to help and how they are or hindering each other.

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: Oh, yes, I have actually studied teachers unions for a long time and have been very interested in them as potential agents of support. I think there is a great opportunity. And there are unions, if you look at what, for example, Toledo Peer Observation and Review Plan does, which was negotiated through the contract by the union, to provide close mentoring and support and assessment by teachers of teachers.

That started in the early eighties and continues today. Rochester has modeled its system on that system. Cincinnati has as well.

Those are very impressive support systems. They are not structured as school-based systems, but the quality of mentoring and pedagogy is very impressive. The problem with the union piece is that the national organization has been very supportive of a lot of things that would help new teachers, and they have done a fair amount of research about what new teachers need, but often, between the national and the local, there is a different set of issues that come into play that are more about protecting people who have been there a long time and giving less attention to new teachers.

So, you will see a lot of variation, again, from district to district in what the orientation of the union is to this issue of new teachers. I think that as the balance of power in unions locally shifts, and the leadership changes from the veterans to the less experienced people, we are going to see much more active attention to new teacher issues. And I have seen it happen in several local districts, where a kind of reformist union president takes over and where suddenly the issues of new teachers are very different and they become central to the union.

So, I think there is a great opportunity. I think the public does not believe the unions will do it. I think there is a lot of disbelief that unions could care about it, but there is a lot of opportunity.

MARY ELLEN FREELY: Any additional questions?

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: … and move very quickly up a ladder of experience, of pay and responsibility based on very, very thorough observations in the classroom. And it ultimately failed, I think because there was not enough union support really behind it. The person who developed it was defeated in an election there. The question was raised, is there really the kind of sophisticated evaluation system that we need to support this? But it is a very interesting plan, and now other districts are beginning to talk about using it.

In Rochester, there are again some standard lighthouse union management alliances that are developing career ladders, with expert teachers making higher money, having broader responsibility for curriculum development, for mentoring. But I bet, in five or 10 years, we are going to have some big suburban districts who look at the kind of model that Cincinnati was developing, and they figure out how to make it work. Because the interests of new teachers are going to be so much more important than they are now.

So, it is my agenda, and making it work, particularly when money is ever in shorter supply, is really the challenge. But I would Cincinnati is a really interesting place. If you go on the Web site for the Center For Policy Research In Education, at Wisconsin, Allan Odden tracks different performance-based pay plans. And often, with the performance-based pay, there is a career ladder of differentiated responsibilities. So, he have some specific examples on there that you can look at.

MARY ELLEN FREELY: Are there any other questions?

[No response]

MARY ELLEN FREELY: Thank you so very, very much.

[Applause]

SUSAN MOORE JOHNSON: Thank you very much. There is the Web site. I might say that we post a lot of our research, and you can find more there. Thanks very much.

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